Saturday, September 5, 2015

Loonpond readers discover Claire Smith and her Sydney Anglican Complementarian views on feminism

 And will Sydney Anglican Complementarian men write to Dorothy and demand an apology?

Dorothy quotes Claire Smith at the Loonpond...If, however, you mean, ‘Is it sexist in that women are inferior to men?’ then it’s not sexist. This is not a statement about worth. It’s a statement about our participation in the congregation and in one limited aspect of what happens in our congregation involving teaching and authority. In fact, not even all teaching, but a particular sort of teaching: the ongoing, authoritative, formal instruction of the congregation. So, it’s saying, ‘Women are to be submissive in that they are not to have a formal teaching role with respect to men in the congregation.’ They are not to engage in that sort of teaching.

...and the readers' responses


  1. Fucking patriachs - all of the one God religions are anti-women. It was when they wrote Lilith - hunter gatherer woman - out of history and replaced her with the gormless Eve - agricultural woman - that the 'original sin' was perpetrated on both men and women.

    From wiki:

    "The idea in the text that Adam had a wife prior to Eve may have developed from an interpretation of the Book of Genesis and its dual creation accounts; while Genesis 2:22 describes God's creation of Eve from Adam's rib, an earlier passage, 1:27, already indicates that a woman had been made: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

    "The Alphabet text places Lilith's creation after God's words in Genesis 2:18 that "it is not good for man to be alone"; in this text God forms Lilith out of the clay from which he made Adam but she and Adam bicker. Lilith claims that since she and Adam were created in the same way they were equal and she refuses to submit to him:[57]

    "The background and purpose of The Alphabet of Ben-Sira is unclear. It is a collection of stories about heroes of the Bible and Talmud, it may have been a collection of folk-tales, a refutation of Christian, Karaite, or other separatist movements; its content seems so offensive to contemporary Jews that it was even suggested that it could be an anti-Jewish satire,[58] although, in any case, the text was accepted by the Jewish mystics of medieval Germany."


    1. Lilith was most probably a Lesbian, Anon. Explains it all.
    2. Crap anon, Lilith would have eaten the snake, made sauce from the apple and given Adam a good time and then she could be a lezzie in her spare time if she felt like it. Only the power of property relations explains the conservative women like Eve who survive the patriarchy by sucking up the blame for everything the alpha Adam man chooses to do, like eating the apple she offered him. What a little boy, dog ate my homework type excuse for making the wrong choice? My mother would have said "and if Adam jumped off the cliff would you follow?".

      But here you go; a real life running dog collaborator Eve on RN this morning - of course on the Tom Switzer program - a dinosaur woman who must be Miranda Divines' heroine and source of her wisdom.

      Christina Hoff Sommers says, "But some commentators warn that today’s modern feminism is a corruption of what feminism should be; that feminism is no longer about freedom, it’s just a lobby group for pet grievances. That it's not so much about emancipation; it’s now reactionary."

      But she is in favour of lezzies, listen and weep.

  2. Hi Dorothy,

    It would appear that nowadays the Liberals have two Saviours in their pantheon, God and Coal.

    The question however is how do the creationists among them explain the formation of coal. Thanks to the intertubes we can wonder no longer;

    A delightful piece of tosh evidently written by a real geologist.



    1. A classic DW, and the pond is eternally grateful, at least until the twelfth of never, for the link.

  3. Thanks Claire Smith. Now I know why Xians don't support SSM: they can't tell who the submissive partner is. And now I know why that is so critical to their whole existence.
    Maybe if we offered to wear labels that would resolve the issue? A dress? HIgh heels? I'd do almost anything to marry my partner of 20 years; I'd even be prepared to identify as the submissive one - at least in public.


    1. I think a Venn diagram might help sort out some of those tricky areas of responsibility between man and woman in Smith's argument.




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      2. Don't actually think Claire is wrong... It's exactly what the bible teaches. If you don't believe in the bible, why don't you give her the freedom to believe what she wants to.

      3. This comment has been removed by the author.

      4. Doreas
        I'm not trying to be offensive but my dealings with Sydney Anglicanism, and particularly Jensenism, has led me to believe that God exists far beyond the realms of Sydney Anglican complementarianism. Complementarianism to me is a policy used by the institutional church to control women and GLBTQI people so as to maintain the status quo. I have a feeling that I am much older than you and I have come from a lineage that saw my grandmother left with an 8 yr old and a 6mth old baby. Her husband died of a cerebral haemorrhage at a very young age. No one looked after the widow. ( I heard a sermon by Phillip Jensen about how when he was a young man he went to nursing homes because the Bible said widows had to be looked after. His looking after was to visit them. This sermon was when he was teaching women to be subservient. His point was the nice quiet patients were the ones he liked to visit. The grumpy ones probably in pain were difficult. This was his way of telling women to be compliant. I wonder if the Taliban discriminate regarding grumpy and compliant widows when they lock them up and silence them). Anyway my grandmother went out to work. My mother (the 8 yr old) married a man who was an alcoholic and wouldn't work. She had to be the bread winner or we would have all starved. So sitting in church being told that women can't have a voice in front of men does not sit well. These men are confused. They are not God. They are men who want women to remain silent. I've always said ...what is it about a man that needs a woman to be submissive and silent. And what is it about a man who is happy to have a woman preach in front of him....I bet I know your answer...heresy. My answer ...look at the psychology behind the way the bible is read.