Anthony Venn-Brown writes to Sydney Anglican, Haydn Sennitt, about the problems that arise when religious groups use ex-gay ministries to move same-sex attracted individuals from sexual brokenness to heterosexual wholeness

Surely one of God's greatest gifts  is to be able to love... and be loved in return. 

Anthony Venn-Brown has posted an email (in the comments section of an earlier post on this blog), that he had sent to Sydney Anglican, Haydn Sennitt. This was after Haydn Sennitt had written an article on the Liberty Christian Ministry website, as the pastoral worker to SSA individuals and their families. Haydn's role also involves speaking to young adolescents in Christian schools, and auditoriums full of young university students, about the incongruencies of SSA and the Christian lifestyle. Anthony explains in his letter, that it's not about Haydn and Anthony's stories...but  more importantly, it is about the lives of others affected by religious groups, whose prejudice forces SSA individuals to remain closeted, for fear of rejection, and the damage that is done when SSA individuals are encouraged to believe that they can move towards heterosexuality through  ex-gay ministries.
Anthony writes...

 

Hi Haydn

I did think that the assumptions you have made about the meaning of my déjà vu statement on the ABC has taken things a little too far.

EG "The implication, hint hint, is Change did not work for me, and therefore it cannot for Haydn. We have many things in common: both were/are married, have two daughters, identify as Christian, and even once/do attend the same church, therefore expect him to go down the same track that I have. Haydn’s really gay, and nothing he can say or do to the contrary will change that. Haydn, why fight yourself? There is no integrity in that. Why stick to your wife and children and deny ‘who you are’ and live with a ‘lack of integrity’ when you can join others who ‘understand you’? You’re ‘lying’ to yourself and everybody else and one day you can and should leave your family because it’s all a hopeless sham."

These are rather heartless statements and assumptions that I wouldn't make. You and I do have many similarities in our journey. Fortunately I have not had to deal with sexual abuse or a tortured relationship with my family as you seem to have had. Your brief time living as a gay man with the many meaningless and often anonymous sexual encounters is tragic. I lived like that myself for some time before I got married. And like you some of that continued during my marriage life. It appears from what you have said and written that this was mostly at beats, sauna's or a part of the gay 'scene'. I am not sure...this has never been fully clarified. My life today though living as an openly gay man is very very different. Its moral, full of wonderful people and most of my gay friends are in monogamous committed relationships. You and I previously were obviously moving in the wrong circles.
This is certainly not just about me. ....my story or your story. We now have 40 years of 'ex-gay' history to draw on. That patterns are quite clear. I have worked with 100's of people like myself and like you. Currently I am working with a high profile ex-gay leader in the US who is in the process of facing the reality late 50's. And another man I worked with recently early 60's. When you speak about the decisions and choices people like us have had to make you make it sound like the issue was that we left the marriage to live a 'gay life' you seem to be insinuating it is about sex and that we choose selfishly. Or that we have 'given in' to our homosexuality. This is very far from the truth and demonstrates that you are unaware of the personal pain we have experienced in coming to a place of acceptance. Believe me it was and is never that easy. It's unfair that you speak so demeaningly about this.

I do feel sad for you.....and your wife. This is not a condescending sadness in any way. It is genuine compassion having experienced myself some of your pain and seen how my former wife also suffered. You have blogged about your unfaithfulness and betrayal of your marriage vows. I am saddened to read that in such a public space and wonder what impact these sorts of disclosures have on your wife's mental health and sense of self worth.

A women recently emailed me her story after Ron Brookman said at the marriage equality committee that he had recently performed the marriage of 3 men who were 'former homosexuals' .

"My story... I am straight and I was married to a closeted gay Christian man. This is a scenario that occurs over and over again in the Christian world. The gay man or women has heard all their lives from the pulpit that they are an "abomination". Mostly there is never even a distinction made between same-sex attraction/orientation and same-sex behaviour. So gay Christians learn to hide, to never be authentic, to never reveal their struggles. They marry a person of the opposite sex because that's what is expected. This is a marriage doomed to failure. The unsuspecting straight partner knows something is wrong but can't work out what. The gay partner eventually finds every excuse in the book to avoid intimacy and most often also becomes emotionally distant and detached, depressed and anxious. The straight partner has lost not only an intimate partner but also a friend and companion, and their self-esteem is quite often shattered in this facade of a marriage.

I'm sad for Ron Brookman's wife, and for the wives (and children if these marriages don't make it) of the other men he talks about in this interview. I'm sad for everyone who will believe what he says. I'm sad for myself... separated, now divorced from my Christian, closeted, gay-in-denial ex-husband (also in ministry). I'm sad for my ex-husband's first wife and children. I'm sad that he quite possibly will do this again to a 3rd woman because of fear and shame, and because of messages like this one from Ron Brookman that say that it's possible to be a "former homosexual". I support honesty, authenticity, and integrity. And... I should also have said that I'm very very sad for my ex-husband, and for all the unnecessary anxiety, depression, fear and shame that keeps him in the closet."

So we all suffer in this together in this terrible dilemma of being gay in a Christian culture that is ill-informed about sexual orientation.

How do I know all these things......from the experience of working with 100's of people who have tried the path of marriage....some used to attend Liberty....many other ex-gay style programs..

As always I am willing to dialogue or chat with you. Our meeting and the content will remain confidential if that is what you desire.

 

Anthony adds... I didn't receive a personal reply to my email but I am assuming that this post on his blog the next day is his answer

http://proverbspurple.wordpress.com/2012/10/17/something-to-keep-in-mind/

it gets sadder unfortunately.

I am reminded once again what Archbishop Jensen said on ABC's Q&A and was reaffirmed by Haydn that they would like to discuss the issue homosexuality in an atmosphere that is not volatile but respectful ......but when the opportunity to do this is offered then it is either ignored or soundly rejected.

Well Bill...I heard Haydn speaking on that ABC radio show...and he sounded like a fine man... just like Anthony... and you know something...I sure hope his marriage is, and continues to be a happy one...but I have issues with a group like Sydney Anglicans who use a young man like that..to push their homophobic message. I mean what kind of  ethics committee would allow Haydn to publish his sexual life story for all to see...and Bill ...that Peter Jensen was one of the ethical advisors for LCMI ...and isn't David Petersen now on the ethics committee? And what is ethical about encouraging, and using, a young man, grappling with his SSA and receiving marriage counselling,  to preach to others about overcoming SSA?  Who are the people running the Sydney Anglican diocese?

Disgraceful exploiters Calam! Some ethics committee...a bit like the standing committee that made the financial decisions... that resulted in a loss of 160 million...but at least that was only money...these guys are screwing with people's lives...these spiritual policy makers don't care about women or SSA people...but what would you expect when the Sydney Anglican guru, Phillip Jensen writes...  "But it is still true that boys are different to girls. God did not make us as hermaphrodites, but as males and females (Genesis 1:26-28)"
 

 

 Say Ennis...if God didn't make hermaphrodites...then who made my Intersex friends...Satan?

 

Tony Payne from Matthias Media is asking for donations to help reach the target of $420,000

Tony Payne who is responsible for the publishing of material at Matthias Media, which specialises in depicting God as both sexist and homophobic, is asking for donations.

And why shouldn't Jensens' print media company ask for donations...I mean them big banks that sent the world broke got bailed out by governments...so why shouldn't a group of people who sent the Sydney diocese broke, and is now overseeing the sale of Bishopscourt...now Pete Jensen is moving out ...ask for donations?

Yes Jack...it's a bit of a case of What Some of You Were....and now are.

And what's that Jack...Once a bigot always a bigot ....or a classic case of the emperor's new clothes?

Sydney Anglican women participate in the Anglican Church League's apartheid policy.

 

The Anglican Church League hosted its first women’s Synod dinner to promote the work of the ACL, which is aims at promoting bigotry... by purging tolerant and egalitarian Anglicans from the Sydney diocese. The key note speaker was Kara Gilbert, the newly appointed Archdeacon for Women’s Ministry in the Sydney Diocese, who spoke about biblical illiteracy, such as equality. ACL Vice President, Claire Smith, provided a brief history of the ACL and encouraged women to become members and to participate in Synod debates and to not be overwhelmed by the ‘suits’ (ie. men).
Gav Poole, ACL President said women bring a certain flavour to the floor.


Calam... is it the flavour of submission ...that Gav's talking about ?

I don't know Bill... but I wonder if that fine Archdeacon lady might do something about the subjugation of Christian women through the use of domestic violence...after all it is domestic violence awareness month ...or is it her role to make sure women interpret domestic violence the way Peter Bolt does ... by ensuring that Sydney Anglican women adhere to the Claire Smith's spiritual grooming and deportment course?

Peter Jensen buys into the clergy row in Scotland by supporting the anti-gay, financially disenfranchiased conservatives!

 

It is reported that one of the world's most outspoken evangelical leaders, Peter Jensen, has lent his support to a congregation facing eviction by the Church of Scotland after it quit the Kirk in protest over gay ordination.

Say Ennis...sounds like St George's Tron's standing committee used Peter Jensen as its spiritual and  financial advisor.

Jack...since when has a Jensen believed in mediation?

Anglican Mainstream posts Rowan Atkinson's speech...Feel free to insult me!

  

Rowan Atkinson,who is well known for insulting English clergy, has given a speech stating that insults are part of free speech. Rowan believes that Section 5 of the Public Order Act 1986 is being abused by police and prosecutors. Now that Anglican Mainstream's opinions are in the minority, Anglican Mainstream wants to ensure that its rights to ridicule gays and feminists are protected.

I say Reginald...it's appalling that the Church of England has such little respect for misogynists who are being forced to subjugate themselves before  female bishops! Our rights to promote hatred must be respected!

Yes Monty...but remember ...litigation has its place in the hands of conservatives...especially when conservatives are insulted

Preachers, Prophets & Heretics: Anglican Women's Ministry... has been published to mark the 20th anniversary in 2012 of the ordination of women as priests in the Anglican Church in Australia

The Honorable Elizabeth Evatt AC will launch Preachers, Prophets & Heretics: Anglican Women's Ministry, edited by Elaine Lindsay and Janet Scarfe (UNSW Press, 2012) at an event to be hosted by St James' Church, King St, Sydney, on Saturday 17 November. Several Sydney-based contributors will also speak.

This book has been published to mark the 20th anniversary in 2012 of the ordination of women as priests in the Anglican Church in Australia. In it, key supporters of women's ordination and astute observers analyse and reflect on the controversy, its context and some of its consequences from their particular stand-points. The eighteen contributors include lawyer Keith Mason, Bishops Keith Rayner and Peter Carnley, MOW president Janet Scarfe, campaigner Muriel Porter, priests Elizabeth Smith and Peta Sherlock, intercessor Janet Nelson, academic Heather Thomson, and historians Peter Sherlock, David Hilliard and Anne O'Brien.
2-5pm, Saturday 17 November
St James' Hall, Level 1, 169-171 Phillip St, Sydney
Cost is $30 or $15 concession/Centrelink pensioners. Includes refreshments.

Media Release: 20th Anniversary of Women Priests in the Anglican Church of Australia
As the Synod of the Anglican Diocese of Sydney begins its Annual Meeting where it will discuss such topics as whether women should promise to submit to their husbands the rest of the Anglican Church of Australia continues to celebrate the 20th Anniversary of the ordination of the first women priests in Australia - the 92 in 92. There are now 3 female Bishops, 462 female Priests and 178 female Deacons in the Anglican Church of Australia and the Church is celebrating the wonderful gifts and ministries of these women. Sydney MOW rejoices in this anniversary year but we also mourn the fact that we are still not able to experience the full and equal ministry of women and men in the Sydney Diocese. Sydney is one of only 4 Australian Dioceses which still do not ordain women as priests. As a result, Sydney Diocese has lost a wealth of talent over the past 20 years as women have left Sydney to be ordained elsewhere. Sydney MOW has identified at least 25 gifted women who are now serving in other Dioceses in Australia, including 2 of the 3 female Bishops. These women have brought diverse perspectives and great gifts to their ministries and the Church is richer for them. Other faithful and committed lay women and men have quietly left the church or moved to other Dioceses because of the intransigence of the Sydney opposition to the full and equal ministry of women. At least two women priests who were ordained elsewhere reside in Sydney and are unable to function as priests and exercise their full ministry in this diocese.

Sydney Anglican, Haydn Sennitt, admits that he was not faithful to his wife after marrying her...but judges others who have grappled with religious beliefs and same-sex attraction!

 

Haydn says that his story is his ...and he is not like other sexually conflicted Christian men who have battled homosexuality.  Haydn criticises Anthony Venn - Brown for separating from his wife, and refers to Anthony as a "so-called" Christian!  Haydn's story is similar to Anthony's... but Haydn stresses that his story is not like others because...  no two things that look the same necessarily are, in much the same way that simply because a table has 4 legs and a turtle has 4 legs that therefore a turtle is a table... but that individuality only apples to Haydn... and not other same-sex attracted individuals who he classifies as sexually broken promiscuous sinners! Haydn goes onto admit  ...It is very true that I was not always faithful to my wife after we got married and we are working through those things in individual and marriage counselling. A lot of my unresolved brokenness has affected our marriage and I am responsible for it. But we’re working at it and our relationship is getting stronger because GOD is with us and very much been the instigator and sustainer of our marriage...   if I was ‘born gay’ how could it be that I would have the biological ‘equipment’ to sire two children and enjoy sexual intimacy with a woman?

Well at least my husband remained faithful until our children were raised and we decided to separate. 

YES Missy...only  Sydney Anglicans would employ someone  :

1. with an extremely promiscuous past, who implies that all gay people behave as he did 

2. sought out a friend to introduce him to his non-English speaking sister, so he could marry her

3. who has been married only a short time and cheats on his wife...but then criticises other gay and lesbian Christians who accept their sexual orientation and don't embroil heterosexuals into their sexual/religious conflict! 

. 

Shouldn't religious leaders who preach hatred and prejudice against gay and lesbians be held responsible for the lives they destroy in the name of God?

 

A desperate woman tries to make Sydney Anglicans understand the way female submission vows can lead to domestic violence and abuse

I hear that the definition of misogyny is being changed from a pathological hatred of women to entrenched prejudice against women.

From Fighting Father Dave's website...

The following letter was passed on to me in good faith by a woman who was deeply concerned by the proposal of the Anglican Diocese of Sydney to re-introduce the word ‘submit’ into the marriage vows, such that the wife promises to ‘submit’ to her husband.

The Archbishop and others who support the amendment to the current marriage liturgy argue that they are simply reproducing the language of the old liturgy. That may be correct, but it fails to take into account the ways that such words can be used to justify abuse!

Father Dave

I am writing from Vancouver, Canada. I was under the ministry of clergy from the diocese of Sydney, (who were working in Vancouver) for 15 years. I was already married when we began to attend a church with a minister from Sydney. When I was married I had vowed to obey my husband. He was violent and punished every infraction of mine if I was not totally submissive. He hit me and said as he was hitting me that it was my fault since I had vowed to obey. I lived with this violence for 20 years. After a neighbour called the police, he stopped hitting me but often restrained me in my room, threatening to hit me, and yelling at me for hours.

In all the time that we attended this church, the minister preached that wives must submit. There was no mention ever of domestic violence, and no mention of help for abused wives. I never did go to the minister for help, but once I asked the minister’s wife for a book for a “friend” who was in an abusive relationship. She did not offer any resources at all. She said that she didn’t have any books on that topic and didn’t need them because there were no abused wives in our congregation.

In one sermon the minister said that God had put the husband in charge and the wife must submit. Then he said that for women with a good husband this was good, and for women with lousy husbands, they could have therapy after the sermon. As he said this he laughed, and of course, it was just a joke, no therapy was actually offered. I felt that he was laughing at women who lived with abuse.

My ex husband would cite the minister in support of his demand that I be obedient. I am very upset that the diocese now wants to use a vow to submit in the marriage vows. I would like my story of criminal assault by my husband made public. I was assaulted in my complementarian marriage and clergy from Sydney had no training whatsoever to deal with this.

I have written to my former minister, no reply, and I have written to the professional standards office of the diocese of Sydney. Someone there wrote that he would get in touch with me. However, I want to share my story before the synod ratifies the vow to submit, since I was taunted with this vow for 30 years, and for 20 of those years, I was hit every two weeks routinely, in sessions lasting several hours, berating me for noncompliance with the vow to obey. Of course, I have to pay for my own therapy, as well as therapy for my children. The diocese of Sydney has not helped me in any way.

Thank you for listening to my story.

Bill...Father Dave might listen... but this poor lady's plea will fall on deaf ears within the Sydney Diocese. Nobody advocates for women...complementarianism is about the behavioural modification and female responsiveness of women to men. Bill..if a complementarian woman marries a bad man ...or a control freak...then she modifies her behaviour so she doesn't make him angry.
Yeah Calam...sounds like Sydney Anglican misogyny has spread far and wide...it's really disgusting that the diocese has not taken responsibility for its misogyny and apologised to women!

Sydney Anglican, Nigel Fortescue writes about Sydney's offensive clergy!

Well I have to say that Nigel has a lot to write about!

 

Nigel Fortescue explains that he has always found it very easy to offend people...and that seems a prerequisite to ministry within the Sydney Anglican diocese. Nigel sniggers at orange afro hairstyles and God only knows what he said about the Boxing Day tsunami...but one could only guess!

 

Sydney Anglican, Dominic Steele condemns gay clergy and tolerant Anglicans

And how many times have I told you that I created Adam and Eve ...not Adam and Steve...and come to think of it...stop eating the shell fish and who freed the slaves?

Ex radio presenter, Dominic Steele, has moved a motion in Synod, expressing concerns about the actions of the Bishop of Gippsland because he appointed an openly gay clergyman. The Bishop of Gippsland should have appointed a gay clergyman who is married to a woman! Russell Powell writes...  the Synod expressed its dismay at the appointment, made in December last year...and that's  because Sydney Anglicans just can't tolerate a departure from the teaching of Scripture.

Say Bill ... are those Synod people the same ones who agreed with Glen Davies' motion to boycott Lambeth...you know when the Sydney diocese aligned itself with extreme bigotry which  condemned GBTI people to persecution, the death penalty or imprisionment?

Yeah Calam... it makes you proud  to be a member of a Christian lynch mob... I can't wait to hear  their Lambeth ‘listening process’ on homosexuality...you know the one where homosexuality is a by product of sexual abuse and poor parenting...and there is no other point of view!

 

Listen Calam...those Sydney Anglicans seem like a real bad influence ...spreading hate and bigotry...and they're always writing about how bad Sydney is and all...how about I get a posse and run them recalcitrants out of town ...and onto the first boat headed for Nigeria or Uganda?

Peter Jensen recommends that the Sydney Anglican diocese continue his mission strategy until 2060...because he couldn't do enough damage in 10 years!

Sandy Grant, the senior minister at St Michael's Cathedral, Wollongong, said about archbishop Peter Jensen's last synod speech … he wasn't calling us really to analyse our success or our failures at this point but to thank God for blessings, they weren't success as much as blessings...more like they weren't success but but failures ...and when you don't want to take responsibility for the loss of more than one hundred and sixty million in stock market gambling losses, the purging of tolerant and compassionate Anglicans from the Sydney diocese, and the spread of homophobia throughout the world... then the best thing to do is blame it on God!

Anthony Venn- Brown has a multiple choice question for Peter Jensen

Anthony ...you forgot D...that's where Peter Jensen runs for cover and remains silent ...so he can refer you to world renoun  scientific research experts in SSA and 'praying away the gay'...or was  that the answer to C?

Albert...I know the answer...it's D...which is all of the above!